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@Danielle
Not voting for me felt a bit contrived since I don't think I was that close to being lynched
You don't think being at L-1, would be close to being lynched? IMO, it's a dangerous place to be.
Themeless Mafia 1 - Day Phase 1
Posts
Read-only
Total:
804
All caught up. Some of my posts are fluff (such as VTLing Press... as some people lack a sense of humor, I will not VTL Speed for showing up in our town).
Regarding the accusation that I am all fluff, I'll humbly point to: #113
Yes I do not leap to conclusions that so-and-so must be scum, I find hysteria distasteful. When we start getting murdered in the night, I hope the easy links to peoples key early actions will prove useful.
Regarding Airmax and Danielle: I am going to keep my fingers crossed that they're the scum team, and waited as a tactic to get us do their work for them. I know, highly unlikely. That said, I don't think I've played with either of them, so they're blank slates to me. I assume Airmax doesn't suck at being scum, so I find his OMGUS joke to be a town sign (doesn't concern himself with blending in, even cracking such a hoke in a game where some players are humor opposed).
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@Lunatic
@coal
So reasoning behind why we should all be wagoning Lunatic right now:
It all starts with Dani's 179 where she says
"I'd like to pressure Ragnar, oromagi, Lunatic or Airmax. Everyone else seems townish atm. Ragnar's post directed at me seemed weird. Oromagi's posts felt weird too, but I don't know who he is or how he plays. "
She then proceeds to vote Ragnar in the next post. Pretty straightforward.
Lunatic's response in 181 struck me as odd for a few reasons. He says
"Pressure them for what? There's no character claims, and everyone's just gonna RC vanilla. Is there specific reason you want to pressure this group of people or is it just because they are "hard to read", and what does this pressure look like? "Vote to lynch airmax because im getting wierd vibes, who's behind me on this?" "
Firstly, I object to the notion that the only reasons to pressure people are for claims or to lynch them.
Secondly, it's not exactly a mystery that Dani's desire to pressure the listed players as "I wanna sort these players into 'probably town' or 'probably not town', which is the entire point of the concept of pressuring people in mafia. This whole notion of "if you're voting for someone, it should be to lynch them" is a really anti-town view to have. I could elaborate a lot more on this, but since it really merits it's own forum post from the play I've seen so far and to avoid clogging the DP with unecessary theory discussion, we'll not go too much further with it.
He then also says
"As town I feel like if you are going to apply pressure you have to have a valid reason for it, and in a set up like this the intention should be to lynch. Saying you just want to pressure people for the sake of pressuring them sounds a bit contrived. I don't see what your end goal is with this logic."
This viewpoint is an incredibly scum-sided view to take. A vote is town's strongest asset, regardless of set-up, as a means of forcing someone to produce content that you can use to sort them into townpiles and scumpiles. Votes force people to be active, as with enough votes, you die. Dying is pretty bad regardless of your alignment, so putting votes on people forces them to engage with the game in a way that, usually, gives indications as to what alignment they are. This is literally scumhunting 101. So just saying "pressuring someone for the sake of pressuring them" isn't inherently contrived - it's literally just how you play mafia from a town perspective.
This is why I feel like Lunatic is afraid of being pressured right now - Dani's 179 didn't exactly elaborate on a specific reason for why Lunatic should be pressured, so a scum!Lunatic might be concerned about having a wagon built on him for a reason he doesn't know how to defend against. This is distinct from what I remember of town!Lunatic in that he doesn't really give a damn if people pressure him - hell, he enjoys getting into 1v1s with people. So I voted him in 204 for this reason to see how he would respond to pressure being put on him.
Lunatic's 207 is an interesting way to try and act calm, so I poke at it a bit more in #212 - if he's not scared of being pressured, then why is he concerned about if my pressure has a reason behind it or not? Either way it shouldn't bother him.
Lunatic's 218 is a tipping point for me for why I'm scumreading him. He says
"Your premise (that town wouldn't equally want to have time wasted on them by being pressured) is wrong, as well as your understanding of my point in regards Danielle's intentions of wanting to pressure a random group of people with no reason whatsoever. I am trying to establish what exactly she is looking to accomplish with her pressure, or if she was simply trying to look productive with no meat in the bones, similar to your lines of questioning earlier that went nowhere. "
One, his understanding of my premise isn't actually the premise behind my pressuring him.
Two, it's really not hard to understand Dani's intentions behind pressuring a group of people she says she isn't townreading, so his statement that she wants to pressure this group (that he happens to be in) for "no reason whatsoever" doesn't feel genuine.
Three, the shading of my pressuring other players in the last line is incredibly suspect. If town!Lunatic feels like Dani's desire to pressure people, or my actions of pressuring people, are fake and aren't actually genuine scumhunting, then he should be trying to engage us to determine how our reads on the slots we're pressuring/wanting to pressure are changing to determine if we're doing it to genuinely sort people and try to solve the game or just to try and look like we're being town. This isn't what Lunatic is doing. Moreover, there's a lot of value in scum!Lunatic undermining town-sided scumhunting efforts in a way that doesn't commit you to saying that someone is town or someone is scum - saying that someone's pressure isn't 'leading to anything' is a good example of this happening.
So tl;dr - there's no genuine feeling of town mindset in Lunatic's posts. He comes off of being scared of being pressured for a reason he can't directly respond to, so is trying to undermine it before it gets rolling. At bare minimum I'm in favor of running Lunatic up to L-1, potentially flipping his slot depending on his reaction.
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@airmax1227
I want your thoughts on 273 as well, but I could only tag 5 people at once because...*shrug*
Also pagetop.
Also, I'm going to sleep now because I'm tired. I hope to see Lunatic at L-1 when I wake up.
Official Vote Count
Objectivity [0]:
oromagi [0]:
coal [0]:
Zaradi [0]:
sui_generis [0]:
airmax1227 [0]:
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@Zaradi
I have reviewed your post in 273 and my thoughts are as follows: You are making a case for why we should be VTLing TUF (Lunatic) for death based on a number of considerations.
I will address the more pertinent ones here. I agree that TUF's post 181 raises several questions, some of which your response identifies. I think 191 also raises similar questions. Specifically, in 191, TUF characterized Dani's list of candidates to investigate further as a "convoluted pressure group". I have a hard time understanding why that group is convoluted. The group Dani identifies in 179 is Ragnar, Oro, Lunatic, and Airmax.
Absent from Dani's group is TUF. If Dani had scum read TUF I could understand his being defensive if he is town. But she didn't. So TUF isn't defending himself, but a group of four others. I do not understand why. If TUF is town then he should be willing to pressure at least one of that group, and he should have a preference for which among the group is the best candidate or he should be suggesting another option based on a set of reads wherein he identifies a more ideal candidate for investigation/pressure. Instead, in 181, TUF is doing one thing that matters and not doing two things that matter. The two things he is not doing is even entertaining a willingness to investigate/pressure while in the same instance he is not suggesting another alternative outside of that group. As town, if TUF has a better idea of who to pressure then he should be speaking up. The one thing he is doing that matters in 181 is he is casting doubt of the very utility of pressuring/investigation in the first instance. You identify this, correctly, as well, and seem to understand the implications to the degree that you are at least willing to state it.
In my prior post I claimed that both of you could not be scum. So, there are three possible worlds: TUF is town and you are scum; TUF is scum and you are town; or you and TUF are both town. The first and the third options become less viable, considering TUF's more recent activity I discuss above; which means that the world I am thinking about now as being the most likely would mean that TUF is scum, but that also would mean you have to be town. So as town, what I would expect you to be doing is at least catching most of the obvious things, and moving the ball forward. Independently of your past interactions with Oro, it seems like you're doing that. The events as they develop also look consistent with my past thinking that you both cannot be scum because you are hard scum reading TUF now to the point that you want him to be at L-1, which is not something I expect scum to do. You are also willing to lead the wagon here whereas you beat around the bush with Oro. I think you are saying that you are more confident that TUF is scum than you were that Oro was scum, and more confident that TUF is scum than that either of Objectivity are scum. (Here's something that's lingering in the back of my mind, though. I think as well you seem to have been demonstrating the most interest of anyone in actually getting something useful out of DP1; difficult as that may be. I think there's two possible reasons for that. More on this tomorrow.)
So there's a huge contrast between what you're doing and what TUF is doing. I am open to revisiting my town read on TUF. As of 278, Danielle VTL'd Ragnar, Sui followed Danielle. The only other vote on the board is yours, after TUF unvoted in 154, which I note is the first instance where my thinking on TUF became less certain. I asked others to post insight on why they thought my town read on TUF was wrong. Admittedly, it wasn't a strong read but one of instinct. I have a lot of thoughts on 154, but I've said enough for now. But here's the key quote from 154 that stands out to me:
Zaradi- Trying to decide on him as well. His aggressive early inquisition (while mostly pointless and mostly self explanatory from what I've seen) seems like a genuine interest to provoke activity, which is pro town. But his line of questioning in both my case, and Oromagi's case doesn't seem to go anywhere, or demonstrate what he specifically thinks is scummy in either case. I'd say it feels a bit convoluted, but again, I am not in his head. Maybe he had a thought and the answers just satisfied that line of inquiry and he didn't feel the need to further the questioning.
(I have added emphasis to this; TUF did not include the bold in the original).
TUF says that an aggressive early inquisition seems like a genuine interest to provoke activity, which TUF characterizes as pro-town to justify in part a potential town read (on you). Then TUF posts what he posts in response to Dani, and then you (note also 266), which I discussed at length above. where by his own standard what he is suggesting is diametrically opposed to not only an "aggressive" inquisition, but any inquisition at all without "a valid reason for it" as stated in 181. So what I am trying to figure out is what counts in the world where TUF is town as "a valid reason"? As well, Dani had reasons for wanting to pressure the group TUF characterized as "contrived". She didn't elaborate on them to the extent I have, but it's not like she was simply saying "pressure for the sake of pressure".
On the other hand, in the world where TUF is town, his reasons for defending that group is that he doesn't want to have a mislynch or waste time on something that isn't going to be productive. That means that he would have to have some alternative candidate for pressure/investigation AND a good reason for it; specifically a reason better than the reasons Dani had for her group. TUF hasn't produced this information. So I am having a hard time seeing TUF's actions from a town perspective. (Note: you in other posts, and others here, have identified incongruence between what I have done/said and what TUF said I have done/said. I agree that TUF has mischaracterized some of my actions, but that doesn't make me scum read him. Town misread people's actions all the time and when you're paraphrasing, as he was, and using adjectives to characterize behavior, there is high risk for miscommunication and misinterpretation. TUF's misreading or mischaracterizing them is null for this reason. My thinking here is independent of that consideration.)
So I am willing to VTL TUF. These actions make more sense as scum to me than as town; and the things he's done post my initial town read make me question my initial town read for a range of reasons, many of which I have stated above.
That means I am town reading you now. Depending on what happens tomorrow I will be more sold on this idea, potentially. We will see.
My list of reads is as follows:
Lunatic - Potentially scum
Ragnar - Potentially scum
Max - Potentially scum
Objectivity - Uncertain; needs to post more and respond to my prior post 199
Oro - Uncertain; seems like clueless town
Zaradi - Potentially town, subject to events NP1 and DP2
Sui - Potentially town
Danielle - Town
I'm also willing to VTL Ragnar or Airmax.
VTL Lunatic
A lot of interesting things went down last night. I just skimmed everything from yesterday, I was hanging out with friends after like 8PM which is why I didn't respond. I'll just go through and give my reads and the reasoning behind them within a couple hours rather than respond to everything I've been asked to or think I should separately. Will make it pretty detailed/comprehensive to make up for my inactivity last night.
I will say (with further explanation sometime in the next few hours) that I agree with the scum reads on ragnar and lunatic right now. An alternative theory I have is that Zaradi and Coal/YYW are scum buddies though. I know they have a friendly relationship prior to this game which might explain why they seem to be agreeing with and amplifying each other so much, but could also be a scum tell on both of their parts. I'll develop this theory more later though along with other reads. Just wanted to give my initial thoughts after reading
I agree with coal's reads. Lunatic is feeling more town to me, but I still think he's one of the best mafia role players so people should be suspect of him always.
(( Btw, TUF, I don't expect everyone to keep their OG name Mr. Philosophical (or however you spelled it) but now calling you a new name is like being asked to call someone whose name is John "Steve." It's counterintuitive :P ))
@Ragnar - If I was one vote away from a lynch, then yes it was good for you not to vote for me (not sure how many votes I had).
However I do find your post #272 to be a bit weird. "Regarding Airmax and Danielle: I am going to keep my fingers crossed that they're the scum team, and waited as a tactic to get us do their work for them. I know, highly unlikely. . . I assume Airmax doesn't suck at being scum, so I find his OMGUS joke to be a town sign." You immediately unvoted Airmax and acknowledged his schedule, but then said you're keeping fingers crossed that he is scum. Then you said his post was a town sign and you doubt he'd play that way as mafia. If you think he's playing to a town meta then why would you be crossing fingers that he and I are scum...? Sounds like you are just looking at two people to focus on for the same easy reason which has already been addressed. What are your other reads, Ragnar?
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@Danielle
As between Ragnar, TUF, Airmax, and Oro, who do you most want to VTL right now?
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@coal
"As between Ragnar, TUF, Airmax, and Oro, who do you most want to VTL right now? "
Not TUF cuz he's the biggest threat but also the biggest potential asset (and we can draw clues from his posts later). Oro seems to be an experienced player even if I can't read him yet. I guess I'm curious what Ragnar has to say. Honestly based on potential activity level alone (hypocritical, I know) and also the fact that I'm just unfamiliar with his personality / mafia meta, probably Airmax. But based on posts alone I'd say Ragnar.
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@Danielle
I'm willing to VTL Ragnar. He currently has two votes. I would like to see who, if anyone, is willing to be that third. I am also interested in seeing if Ragnar has thoughts on what has happened so far. Nothing he has done makes sense as town from an objective standpoint, but subjectively it's harder to parse. I don't know much about him so once we have results DP2 and I have a day's worth of activity against which to compare his behavior to I think I will have a more confident read on Ragnar.
I also want to see if TUF continues to defend Ragnar, or if Airmax jumps in. I think the TUF wagon is worth pursuing to see what flies out of the bushes at this point. I agree he is useful as town, but that is assuming he is town and I am not so confident about that at the moment for reasons I have detailed above. Your point about TUF's potential town utility is more of why I want to see if someone else jumps on the wagon. That could provide valuable insight; both in terms of who is willing to jump on board and who is not. Obviously if it looks like TUF's wagon is getting too full such that scum could potentially hammer and end the DP, I will unvote so that that doesn't happen. But I still think pressuring TUF is worth doing. The purpose of this would be because I want to know if TUF has theories on who else we should be pursuing. He has so far said less than nothing in the way of alternatives to your list he disparaged; but maybe he just hasn't fully formulated his thoughts yet. Perhaps a 3 vote wagon would pressure him to post actual reads and identify actual candidates for pressure and/or death. So this should be his chance to clear up some of what Zaradi noted and what I stated as well and I think pressure is the way to do that.
A few things before I give more detailed reads just bc I don't have the time to until a bit later:
@Airmax- If you cannot carve out time by like Friday morning/Late Thursday night to give detailed reads, I think we should lynch you simply for being anti town b/c of inactivity. Do you have any good reason why we shouldn't?
@Danielle- You entertained for a no lynch on DP1 due to a lack of solid reads, but your own inactivity until recently contributed to that. Also, due to having an odd amount of players, a no lynch on DP1 would not buy us any more time.
To make it clear, I am against a no lynch DP1:
Assuming a regular setup with 7 town 2 scum:
"Day 2: 6 town, 2 scum. (25% chance of hitting scum)
Day 3: 4 town, 2 scum. (33% chance of hitting scum)
Now let's say town lynch D1:
D2: 5 town, 2 scum. (28.5% chance of hitting scum)
Day 3: 3 town, 2 scum. (40% chance of hitting scum)"
No lynching DP1 is definitely anti town, even random lynching gives town a better chance of hitting scum in our current setup.
@Lunatic- You haven't given a full list of reads in a while because you've been kind of under attack, what are your current reads? I want to give you the benefit of a doubt but you have to give us something
As I'm thinking about this more, since even a random lynch is more pro town than a no lynch DP1, if there are no strong scum reads on anyone, I say we lynch airmax by tomorrow night or friday morning simply for inactivity, if he is not more active soon.
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@Objectivity
Post a list of reads of all players specifying in particular whether you think they are scum or town.
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@coal
My unfiltered thoughts without explanation right now are:
Airmax- Uncertain but anti town bc of inactivity so I'd be down to lynch him anyways
Sui- Town
You (Coal)- Town
Zaradi- Town
(But your original pressure on him in the first few pages seemed a bit contrived and you guys have been agreeing/amplifying each other ever since so a bit sus)
(But your original pressure on him in the first few pages seemed a bit contrived and you guys have been agreeing/amplifying each other ever since so a bit sus)
Danielle- Slight scum read. Inactive, then proposes no lynch which is a firmly anti town move in a classic 7:2 setup. But I would lynch others over her right now
TUF- Scum
Ragnar- Slight scum read
oromagi- Town
Will give explanation later. Obviously if something happens between now and when I explain my reads may change, and they may change anyways as I think about what has happened. These are just my initial gut responses
My top 3 candidates for DP1 lynch right now would be:
1) Airmax
2) Ragnar
3) Danielle
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@Objectivity
You scum read TUF based on 289, but only "slight scum" read on Danielle, and yet Danielle is in your top 3 candidates for lynching but not TUF?
Explain. Why are you not willing to VTL TUF? Why are you more sure TUF is scum than Danielle, but TUF is not in your top 3 while Danielle is?
Why isn't Ragnar or TUF your No. 1 lynch candidate?
Why aren't you VTLing?
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@coal
I am okay with pressuring TUF for reasons you mentioned, though we could also just insist he posts some more detailed reads ASAP. For now I'll keep my vote on Ragnar and wait to hear from him and Airmax. Oro should post something more substantive too. I appreciate his friendly interjections but I'm curious about his reads.
@Objectivity - You said "Danielle- You entertained for a no lynch on DP1 due to a lack of solid reads, but your own inactivity until recently contributed to that. Also, due to having an odd amount of players, a no lynch on DP1 would not buy us any more time."
By "lack of solid reads" I mean a lot of DP 1 with a bunch of vanillas is mostly fluff in my experience. It's just a bunch of people voting for each other for random reasons to start, and role claims can't even really be used to exonerate anyone. You voted Airmax right away for a silly reason. People thought I was scummy because I was busy (but I've been contributing ever since, making that initial observation null). I've been vocal about my distaste for set-ups like this, however I can see how behavioral analysis can be drawn from DP1. I just think going on behavior alone (and people's guesses -- usually the most persuasive person whether town or scum pushes a lynch against someone) makes it likely to mislynch DP1, hence my questioning about potentially not lynching. But mathematically and to look back at wagons, lynching is probably useful.
I am okay with pressuring TUF for reasons you mentioned, though we could also just insist he posts some more detailed reads ASAP. For now I'll keep my vote on Ragnar and wait to hear from him and Airmax. Oro should post something more substantive too. I appreciate his friendly interjections but I'm curious about his reads.
I agree with all of this.
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@Objectivity
My top 3 candidates for DP1 lynch right now would be:
1) Airmax
2) Ragnar
3) Danielle
The two people I said I would be comfortable lynching now are Ragnar and Airmax, so we agree there. Ragnar's posts are weird and Airmax hasn't posted; I don't think he ever actually played in a game I signed up for with him. Did you explain why youwould you be comfortable lynching me? How have your contributions to this game been more useful than mine? What did I say that you disagree with?
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@coal
You scum read TUF based on 289, but only "slight scum" read on Danielle, and yet Danielle is in your top 3 candidates for lynching but not TUF?Explain. Why are you not willing to VTL TUF? Why are you more sure TUF is scum than Danielle, but TUF is not in your top 3 while Danielle is?Why isn't Ragnar or TUF your No. 1 lynch candidate?Why aren't you VTLing?
TUF is not in my top 3 candidates for lynching because I agree with you and Dani that he is worth keeping around at least for DP1. If we were lynching based solely on scum reads he would be my #1 and Dani would be bumped down to #4.
Airmax is my no. 1 lynch candidate because of his inactivity.
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@Zaradi
Firstly, I object to the notion that the only reasons to pressure people are for claims or to lynch them.
If not to lynch, then to gather information? Maybe ask them why they did a certain thing? Pressuring to pressure is just empty pressure.
Secondly, it's not exactly a mystery that Dani's desire to pressure the listed players as "I wanna sort these players into 'probably town' or 'probably not town', which is the entire point of the concept of pressuring people in mafia.
How was she accomplishing that? Saying she wants to pressure a bloc of four people randomly means nothing. None of them were substantiated.
This whole notion of "if you're voting for someone, it should be to lynch them" is a really anti-town view to have. I could elaborate a lot more on this, but since it really merits it's own forum post from the play I've seen so far and to avoid clogging the DP with unecessary theory discussion, we'll not go too much further with it.
By the way, all of this is irrelevant. Dani herself *admitted* her pressure was intended for claims. You really shot yourself in the foot here with trying to predict what other people's motives were lol.
This viewpoint is an incredibly scum-sided view to take. A vote is town's strongest asset, regardless of set-up, as a means of forcing someone to produce content that you can use to sort them into townpiles and scumpiles. Votes force people to be active, as with enough votes, you die. Dying is pretty bad regardless of your alignment, so putting votes on people forces them to engage with the game in a way that, usually, gives indications as to what alignment they are. This is literally scumhunting 101. So just saying "pressuring someone for the sake of pressuring them" isn't inherently contrived - it's literally just how you play mafia from a town perspective.
A vote's intention should be to accomplish something. If I just came in and placed my vote on someone without saying why my vote should be considered, what should I expect from the person I voted? " OH NO THEY ARE ON TO ME I GUESS I'LL OUT THE ENTIRE SCUM TEAM NOW!"
Also you are still trying to twist what the original point of me saying the vote was contrived was for. I was questioning the town motive behind the un-explained pressure bloc, which we later found that it's intention was for claims. Funny you defended that even after Dani's omission to this. Also even if we dis-agree on what the intention of a vote should be in a themeless mafia game (I really don't think we do all that much, most of this is semantics), dis-agreeing with me about something =/= scum? Seems like kind of a stretch to meet your established confirmation bias in the matter lol.
This is why I feel like Lunatic is afraid of being pressured right now - Dani's 179 didn't exactly elaborate on a specific reason for why Lunatic should be pressured, so a scum!Lunatic might be concerned about having a wagon built on him for a reason he doesn't know how to defend against.
Nope. Wrong. I was trying to figure out if Dani's reasons were authentic or contrived, like I said. lol.
Again, everything you've done up until now has appeared contrived. I also mentioned this in post 154 before we even had this discussion.
Two, it's really not hard to understand Dani's intentions behind pressuring a group of people she says she isn't townreading, so his statement that she wants to pressure this group (that he happens to be in) for "no reason whatsoever" doesn't feel genuine.
Apparently it is hard to understand, because you still don't understand that her intentions were for pushing claims.
Three, the shading of my pressuring other players in the last line is incredibly suspect. If town!Lunatic feels like Dani's desire to pressure people, or my actions of pressuring people, are fake and aren't actually genuine scumhunting, then he should be trying to engage us to determine how our reads on the slots we're pressuring/wanting to pressure are changing to determine if we're doing it to genuinely sort people and try to solve the game or just to try and look like we're being town. This isn't what Lunatic is doing.
I have been. I asked Dani until she gave me the answer I was looking for, that she was indeed looking for claims because she hadn't read the OP entirely yet. I asked you until you finally said you would be posting it later tonight. You even told me to "ease" by elaboration boner remember? So I waited.
Moreover, there's a lot of value in scum!Lunatic undermining town-sided scumhunting efforts in a way that doesn't commit you to saying that someone is town or someone is scum - saying that someone's pressure isn't 'leading to anything' is a good example of this happening.
Non-committal, yeah, I am still forming reads and trying to understand your intentions behind your actions. Do you expect an OMGUS vote and are more suspicious because of a lack of one? I asked you to elaborate and you finally have. If you didn't I might have voted for you. I wanted to see that you were actually going somewhere instead of just trying to appear like you are. Turns out it was a bit pile of poop lol.
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@Danielle
So you agree now that we should lynch DP1?
If we are going based on scum reads you are #4 so solidly in the middle for me. I only put you as #3 on my lynch list because I agree with you and YY that TUF is worth keeping around for the time being.
The reason I am slightly scum reading you is because you gave a bad solution to a problem you helped create early on (No lynching DP1 due to a lack of solid reads, you contributed to the problem via inactivity, then gave a solution that is a bad one) which is at minimum anti town. But you are still only #4 as far as my scum reads because it could have just been an honest mistake and you have been active ever since.
Btw, I think the last page is very telling of objectivity.
He has 180 switched on me being town and scum. He's been kind of floating by and being agreeable, I would like to see him actually own an opinion isntead of going with the easier answer. I don't even think he fully read what zaradi wrote himself.
VTL Objectivity.
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@Lunatic
I have been pressuring Dani despite everyone else accepting her explanation for inactivity and letting her kind of fly under the radar, so not really agreeable there. I town read you like 10 pages back but a lot has played out since then. You are pressuring me, fine, what are your other reads besides me?
@Lunatic- You haven't given a full list of reads in a while because you've been kind of under attack, what are your current reads? I want to give you the benefit of a doubt but you have to give us something
I wasn't under "attack" until a page ago lol. Zaradi just barely started it in the wee hours of the moring, and the only one to solidly place an agreeable opinion with his was YYW (who also was a complete 180 flip on that note). Anyways, my last read list was 154.